Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ormand Cup

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete Ormand himself may be notable, and it may make sense to discuss the cup in an article about the doctor. Without reliable sources we can't do much. If anyone has issues with similar cups having other articles with little sourcing, I suggest you either try to source them or AfD them. They are not what is being discussed here. To be very clear since this discussion seems to involve some people not as familiar with wikipedia policies. If there are reliable sources about the Ormand Cup we will be happy to have an article, but we can't write an article that doesn't have them. JoshuaZ 01:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ormand Cup

Non-notable sporting event for local sailing club. Exactly six Google hits: two for this article, two others from the organization's website. Tries to link notability to the namesake of the cup, "who was a friend of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and Alfred E. Smith", according to the article. Realkyhick 21:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, notability not established, and there don't seem to be any sources available to do so. - Zeibura ^(Talk) 21:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletions. -- the wub "?!" 23:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep Interestingly enough I found 11 google hits, not including hits that apply to subdivisions of the same website (Which would bring the total to 25). However, arguing that something is not notable just because it does not have many google hits is not much better than arguing that something is not notable because it does not appear in wikipedia. I also feel that Randall O should be given the chance to improve the article. After all, I have noted articles which are less notable than this one, yet which have been been kept, seemingly because they are well organised and presented. Moreover, I have noticed that Randall O has contributed significantly to wikipedia (Especially with regards to articles on the British aristocracy) and I therefore think it would be counterproductive to scare him off; after all, what harm does it really do if wikipedia contains articles that cover topics that are not overly famous? Wouldn't it be more productive to direct our resources to improving the quality of wikipedia articles, and countering genuine problems such as patent nonsense and vandalism?

And Zeibura, why are you using google news to attempt prove your point; just because something isn't newsworthy, hardly makes it unimportant. Otherwise most of history would be of no value.

Matisia 08:02, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Might i add something here, the site on Almeda Calfornia is not complete and i,am sure someone will add to it and to Dr. Charles Ormand for whom the cup is named. WiKi needs more on boating and yachting, which it lacks. The Lord Stanley Cup is widely known, but yatching cups and awards are lacking on WiKi. why remove boating and yachting awards and cups. After all yachting is an olympic event. Also President Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a yachtsman and was a close friend of his. Randall O 08:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC) Randall O I vote to keep it myself.[reply]

Comment: It seems were are drifting off somewhat to whether or not Dr. Ormand is notable. That is not the issue here. It is whether or not the award given to the winner of a local (apparently) competition is notable, which I argue it isn't. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument, as has been stated in AfD discussions many, many times. I don't dispute that the original author has made contributions in the past. I also think that Dr. Ormand may be notable enough for his own article, if proper sources can be found. BTW, comparing a local yachting award to the Stanley Cup is a bit much. Realkyhick 22:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The issue is, there are other articles on Wiki such as the One Ton Cup and the Monsoon Cup which are included and might i add, with just as little information. Several New Zealand boating and yachting associations are listed on Wiki. This being the case, why are the associations in the San Francisco Bay area being excluded from Wikipedia? There are only a few in the bay area. But one of the yachts in the bay area will try for the America's Cup. Also might i add the San Francisco Bay area, is the home of several million people. I have made contact with the commodore of the Islander 36 Association for pictures and more information. Also Wikipedia does not have one yacht club or association in the San Francisco Bay area. Does this mean they wish to exclude the whole bay area? Wikipedia also has few or any lists of cups or awards for yachting and boating.

Keep Randall O 08:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Randall O[reply]

Comment: I have to agree with Randall O here that although San Francisco Bay is 'local' in the sense that it is only a relatively small area geographically, it is certainly not deficient in terms of population; this is not a cup awarded to some village sports team!

Matisia 08:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How do we know it's not just a local trophy? There are no independent sources to indicate either way. There's no conspiracy to exclude San Fransisco anything — I would hold the same opinion if the locale was San Diego or Newport or Perth. As for the other cups given as examples (ignoring WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS for a moment), the One Ton Cup is awarded for a world championship for a class, thus clearly notable; the Monsoon Cup was intiated by a head of state and is part of a widely recognized international tour, also clearly notable. If you can show sources which prove that the Ormand Cup rises to the same level of prestige and notability as either of these two, I will gladly reconsider. Realkyhick 19:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - there are no reliable sources found. A notable trophy would likely have generated news coverage in at least the local papers but none are found in Google News. Searching the web doesn't seem to turn up any reliable sources either. -- Whpq 21:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - As the Islander 36 Association governers all Class 1-36 yachts in the San Francisco Bay area regardless of the sponsoring groups or associations. Under the One Design-Class Associations ODCA Randall O 08:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC) Randall O[reply]
Week Delete Does not appear notable. Harlowraman 22:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete article desperately using possibly notable subject (i.e. Charles Ormand) as a COATRACK-like tool to justify its presence on Wiki... --Aarktica 01:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.